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Offline Raphaela  
#21 Posted : 19 May 2012 10:10:22(UTC)
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I agree with Gildy's statement, and I also think the financial situation should be taken in consideration. Women usually get pregnant for 2 reasons if the man doesn't want a kid, if the guy is rich or if she REALLY wants a baby. When the guy has a good financial situation and the woman don't, I think he should help; on the second case scenario the women usually disappear so they won't have any trouble with parental rights.
I do agree that on some cases (like when the woman is a lot richer than the guy) it isn't fair.
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Offline Raphaela  
#22 Posted : 19 May 2012 10:14:44(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: asdf Go to Quoted Post
Absolutely, but what if it's the other way around?


I'm sorry, I didn't understand, what other way around?
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Offline asdf  
#23 Posted : 19 May 2012 11:28:02(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Raphaela Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: asdf Go to Quoted Post
Absolutely, but what if it's the other way around?


I'm sorry, I didn't understand, what other way around?


The guy wants to keep his baby, but the girl doesn't want hers.
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Offline forkboy  
#24 Posted : 19 May 2012 11:41:02(UTC)
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Then until there's a way to implant a womb into a man ala that Arnie movie, tough shit. Ain't the man who has to deal with pregnancy, is it? And that bambino ain't surviving without a womb for a good number of weeks
Offline Raphaela  
#25 Posted : 21 May 2012 01:05:46(UTC)
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Exactly. Men only say they want the baby because it's not them that carry 5 pounds of a parasite (biological studies confirm that babies release a substance that makes it impossible for the mother's body to identify it as a different body, when the fetus stops producing this substance, birth happens) on your belly, get a lot of weight, feel sickness all the time, feel a lot tired, your feet get huge, it's AWFUL.
Men get it easy.
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Offline Rincewind  
#26 Posted : 21 May 2012 01:54:04(UTC)
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so there is no real choice for the male... If he doesn't want it and the woman does, the baby happens, and he is stuck paying for it.
if he does want it and the woman doesn't.. he has his potential child murdered.

I hate it when people see me at the supermarket and they are like:
Hey, what are you doing here?
and im just like:
Oh you know, hunting elephants
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asdf on 21/05/2012(UTC)
Offline Raphaela  
#27 Posted : 21 May 2012 02:28:14(UTC)
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Abortion is not murder.
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Offline Rincewind  
#28 Posted : 21 May 2012 02:37:25(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Raphaela Go to Quoted Post
Abortion is not murder.


depends on your point of view... Im sure from the view point of someone who want's to keep the child it is murder... from the view point of someone who wants to get rid of it it isn't..

Raph, the world is not black and white, its not my view is correct and everyone elses views are incorrect.
I hate it when people see me at the supermarket and they are like:
Hey, what are you doing here?
and im just like:
Oh you know, hunting elephants
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asdf on 21/05/2012(UTC), Tman on 10/01/2014(UTC)
Offline forkboy  
#29 Posted : 21 May 2012 03:04:57(UTC)
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No, abortion is not murder. I might decide the grass is pink but that does not make it so. Murder is a legal term with a fixed definition. "Murder is the unlawful killing, with malice aforethought, of another human, and generally this state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide (such as manslaughter)."

Abortion is "defined as the termination of pregnancy by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus or embryo prior to viability." Technically a miscarriage is a spontaneous abortion, as opposed to an induced abortion.

This doesn't even touch upon the fact that a ball of cells is not a human being.

Do you think you should get a say in whether or not your girlfriend (or your one night stand) is allowed to take the morning afterpill? Same end result as a medical abortion.
Offline Rincewind  
#30 Posted : 21 May 2012 04:44:31(UTC)
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as i was playing devils advocate and at least attempting to see both sides of the discusion (something which is sadly lacking on this forum nowadays). As i assumed you would realise from my wording "Im sure from the view point of someone who want's to keep the child it is murder". my personal viewpoint differs, I have been in that situation after a broken condom incident. my partner and i had a talk about it we decided that the morning after pill was the best option at that time.. Would i feel the same way now? im not sure, But i agree 100% that at the end its the womans body, its her right to choose.
where i disagree with Raph is what happens after that choice has been made. If it is a one night stand, the condom breaks and the man really doesn't want the baby and the female is aware of this. Does the man still owe a financial comitment to the child? Or should he be viewed in the same way as sperm doners are?

I would like to say that if i am ever put in that situation again, whoever i am with understands me well enough and respects me enough to talk to me about it and have a discussion with me about possible options. If she doesn't then i would feel that there is a flaw in our relaionship and that she doesn't view me as an equal.
I hate it when people see me at the supermarket and they are like:
Hey, what are you doing here?
and im just like:
Oh you know, hunting elephants
Offline Raphaela  
#31 Posted : 21 May 2012 06:54:24(UTC)
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Like I said, on some cases it isn't fair. But let's say the woman is poor. She's religious and thinks abortion is murder so she'll have it. Assuming the father won't run away, isn't it fair that he should give 30% of his salary to help the woman give the child a better life?
The whole point has a lot of 'ifs', but should a change be made on the whole child support law because of really small minority? Besides, it's easy for the guy to run away in situations like that, which is what they do when they aren't confortable with the idea of having a kid.
I understand your point, but I'm being practical.
It's pretty much saying it's the woman's fault the baby happened. I honestly think that a man who doesn't support a woman pregnant with his child is a jerk, even if it was an accident.

Edited by user 21 May 2012 07:02:22(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline Rincewind  
#32 Posted : 22 May 2012 21:41:54(UTC)
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i would argue that religion is a fucked up means of controlling people based on standards set 2000 years ago..

its not the womans fault, but its not the mans fault either, its both of their fault.
I hate it when people see me at the supermarket and they are like:
Hey, what are you doing here?
and im just like:
Oh you know, hunting elephants
Offline Aj  
#33 Posted : 22 May 2012 22:41:04(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Raphaela Go to Quoted Post
Like I said, on some cases it isn't fair. But let's say the woman is poor. She's religious and thinks abortion is murder so she'll have it. Assuming the father won't run away, isn't it fair that he should give 30% of his salary to help the woman give the child a better life?
The whole point has a lot of 'ifs', but should a change be made on the whole child support law because of really small minority? Besides, it's easy for the guy to run away in situations like that, which is what they do when they aren't confortable with the idea of having a kid.
I understand your point, but I'm being practical.
It's pretty much saying it's the woman's fault the baby happened. I honestly think that a man who doesn't support a woman pregnant with his child is a jerk, even if it was an accident.


I feel terribly uncomfortable with this. There are plenty of bad mothers who go through with having the kind believing they're responsible enough (perhaps despite the man's protests they aren't) and then end up not being responsible enough and being a shit parent. Whilst men are able to run away from a pregnancy yes, women are more than capable of running away (metaphorically or literally) once the babies been born. If a couple are together and the woman gets pregnant but the man doesn't want it, tough in my opinion. There are enough contraceptives available for there to be practically no chance of them getting pregnant. Sitting there saying "what if what if what if" just takes us to a point where we're talking about situations so rare that they're always going to be confusing and someone's always going to be fucked (no pun intended) in the situation. It's just life. But in the vast majority of cases, if people are in a sexual relationship with someone they should be mature enough to use the correct contraceptives and if not then they should be prepared (both of them) to deal with the financial implications of a baby. Brick wall

I do think the father has responsibility because the woman does as well, if a father wants the baby that much then he should have found a suitable partner to have it with. Any father who complains about not being able to have a child after a one night stand is utterly clueless. Same goes for a woman though. If a woman has a one night stand with someone and decides to keep the baby is also utterly clueless, and I'd strongly recommend early abortion for this. But if the mother REALLY wants to have the baby then it's down to her family to support her with it, not the man. IF the woman doesn't have family that can help support her then yeah the man should pay somewhat because at that point it hasn't got anything to do with responsibility it's another human being who will be innocently adversely affected. But the chances of a woman having a one night stand, keeping the baby AND not having any family to support them is probably pretty low anyway, so everything I wrote is probably pointless anyway.

I think at the end of the day people just don't give sex the respect it deserves. I'm far from religious on the subject but I do think there's a kind of "sanctity" about it. Sex should be special every time. Doesn't mean you can't have loads of it, but I do think people should give sex more respect. It is at the end of the day the process of making new humans, and people see it as a bit of a recreational activity. Other sexual things I can understand being recreational because they're not actually sex, but sex itself is way, way, way different to other things IMO.
Offline Mt. Epic  
#34 Posted : 23 May 2012 08:45:37(UTC)
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I think with the issue of over-population and economic struggles nowadays, it would make sense to have the choice. It's difficult to accept, but nothing in life is easy. You shouldn't have been fucking in the first place if you didn't want a kid.

But there are those Christians and other more conservative people who think otherwise because it is against their beliefs, and that should be respected. But they should honor those who aren't conservative like them. It's something called minding your own damn business. If you think society is gonna become corrupt just because a couple youths are painstakingly "murdering" an unborn fetus with the hopes that someday they could bring up a better child once they have a steady income and lifestyle is just downright ridiculous. That's what they said about rock music and holding hands in the 50s.

Besides, I think it's ridiculous what a woman can or cannot do. Child birth is very painful from what I heard. Motherhood isn't something easy to take on. Most people who get abortions aren't some low-life sinners, destined for hell. They're average people like you and me, most of whom have a difficult lives.

I understand that adoption sounds good too, but go back to my first main point. It might sound ridiculous, that it can't happen, but it will. Given our current use of resources, and the current population increases, our maximum capacity would hit in 2050, when the world will have over 13 billion people! With the world getting shitty, we could afford to having some children, especially those who wouldn't be as loved as the well-raised kids whose parents didn't want to abort.
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Offline Sydthequeenofpunk  
#35 Posted : 25 August 2013 08:31:36(UTC)
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I'm pro choice.
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Offline Tman  
#36 Posted : 10 January 2014 02:34:37(UTC)
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I'm pro-life and a firm republican. If you don't want the baby don't have sex. Problem solved, they know the risk.
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